Colt 1911 Slide Serial Number Location
I was given a Colt 1911 that was used in two Wars. The man I rec'd it from was a Navy Corpsman on Iwo Jima; he had tears in his eyes when he talked about that island as if it everything happened yesterday (and it's almost 60 years ago), This 1911 was handed down 11 times.
Missing serial number on old Colt 1911A1. Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by AirPower, May 10, 2005. AirPower Member Joined: Jun 14, 2003. Messages: 543. Last weekend I went gun shopping with a buddy. We went to see a colt 1911 that he heard about from a friend of a friend.
It originally belonged to a Marine Captain and then made its way down to the Corpsman, who the Marines obviously held in high esteem. This man was awarded three purple hearts a Silver Star, and a Bronze Star with two oak leaf clusters. He is obviously a true hero.
He said that being a Corpsman, he wasnt supposed to be armed. He said that due to a number of Corpsman being kidnapped and tortured at night by the Japanese, the Marines presented him with this 1911 to protect himself. He said he used it to dispatch several Japanese during his time on Iwo, and then he just broke down crying about all of his lost friends and the nightmares he faced as a 17 year old Corpsman. He is a man's man. I have the utmost respect for this man's courage; I wish I could have talked with him earlier and gotten to know him better, but then I hope to do so now.
It has all of the military proof markings on it, but no serial no., so it isn't one of those 'lunch box specials' The frame or the whole gun for that matter has not been refinished so, but it is sans any manufacturer markings on the frame, other than the inspection stamps. The slide is Colt and it appropriate to the 1911. The holster has been embelished with the Marine Anchor, Globe, and Eagle hand drawn and is manufacturer marked '1918.' The only detractor is that the man said he feared the Gov't would get him and he scraped the US Property from the slide. I originally planned to have this gun restored by Turnbull Restorations, but since the frame is missing a manufacturer's mark, I am at a loss; I dont even know if Turnbull would take it.
I have tried looking in the Clawson's book and they make reference to the 'lunchbox specials' -based upon the testimony of the gentleman that gave this gun to me, it certainly isnt a lunch box special, but actually a gun that went through two wars sans a serial number and a manufactures marks. How that could have happened is beyond me. It is beautifully fitted and the trigger pull feels like 4lbs and breaks cleanly. The barrel is in excellent condition and also lacks any markings. The underside of the slide where the disconnector rides has all the proper proof markings. I hope to go and visit this gentleman again (he was pretty traumatized relating about how it came into his possession and talking about Iwo) and get some more details about this pistol and to hopefully have everything documented and notarized. I am honored that he had choosen to give it to me.
I had been lusting after my brother's 1911 and Luger for over a year and low and behold my neighbor knocks on my door out of the blue and presents me with this gun. If anyone can shed some light about the uniqueness of this pistol, please share them with me. The gun has an 'H' and 'G' stamped on the frame where the disconnector is located. On the left side of the gun it is stamped 'SB' or is could be an 'S8' with an Eagle's Head inspection mark (I cant find a SB inspector, but there is an S12 inspection - funny thing is I am quite certain is says SB or S8 below the Eagle's head). The lower left of the trigger guard is marked 49, Front portion of the trigger guard has the standard upside down triangle with the VP for proof testing, on the right side top of the trigger guard it is marked 'K.'
On the right front fram rail on top is stamped two 'K's and a '3.' On the disconnector rail on the inside of the slide is marked '18' '3' and a 'K'. There are no markings on the barrel. On top of the firing pin stop on the slide is stamped 'H.' In reading Clawson's collectors guide to the 1911 the first 72,570 psitols delivered to the military in 1911 and 1912 DID NOT have serial numbers. So I guess it isn't as unusual as I thought. Colt didnt start stamping serial numbers on their guns until Dec 27, 1912.
So it appears to be a bonfide USN or USMC pistol from 1911 or 1912. If he hadn't scratched the US Property from the slide, it would be valuable to a collector; it is priceless to me.
The holster still hast some of the volcanic ash from Iwo Jima in it. There is light surface rust here and there but with a gun almost 100 years old you would expect that.
John, You've got a fascinating pistol with a priceless story but I have no explanation for the lack of markings on the frame. The S8 under the Eagle's head is the final inspection stamp and would indicate that the pistol was accepted by the Ordnance Dept in late 1918 or 1919. Your slide is clearly from late 1918 or early 1919 as well. My guess is that the other markings have been planed off on both sides of the frame. It should be marked U.S.
Property and have a serial number. I believe you've mistaken procurement records for shipping records and there is very little correlation between the two. As one example, see that 500,000 were ordered from Remington UMC yet less than 30,000 were made and delivered. Once the US entered WWI, The Ordnance Dept kept doubling and tripling the orders for pistols until suddenly the war was over and they cancelled all the orders. Colt and Springfield Armory just made them as fast as they could and delivered them the same way. All M1911 and M1911A1 pistols are/were serial numbered except for the rare, so-called 'lunchbox specials.'
I suspect that most of those we see now are pistols that have had their markings removed because there were stolen from the government. If you look at American Rifleman magazines from the post-war period there are repeated warnings about war souvenirs and that any U.S.
Weapons in GI possession are considered stolen unless the soldier had a valid government receipt. So, that is why it is so common to see the US Property marks and serial numbers defaced or removed. The pre-WWI pistols that the Navy bought were even carefully numbered so as not to overlap the Army pistols. The Ordnance Dept not only required numbers, but required the pistols to be shipped in SN sequence, at least until 1918.
Colt created some confusion for collectors by duplicating some serial numbers with other contractors and Remington UMC was NOT assigned a special block of numbers, although Springfield Armory was. All of this is interesting and confusing but the primary point is that essentially ALL of them started life with a serial number. Clawson makes reference to Colt keeping a supply of pistols without serial numbers. As you said the Ordnance Dept required all lots of pistols to be in consecutive serial numbers until 1918 and if one of them was rejected, one of the unserialed numbered guns was struck with the serial number of the rejected firearm. It said Colt replaced 149 rejected pistols according to their ledger, I wonder if this could have been #150 and just was not given a serial number. All of the markings and finish appear to be original, it doesnt look like it has been refinished.
I wonder since this has all the proper markings if this just happen to make it out of the factory like this. It is indeed a perplexing gun. I think the slide should have said 'Model 1911 of the US Navy,' but in Clawson's book, I have seen pics of guns with and without the US Property Marking, which I believe should have been on the left front dust cover portion of the frame of this particular gun. I see that Clawson didn't break down the serial numbers now for the timeframe in question, hence my error in thinking they were unserial numbered for tha timeframe.
It just says 1-72570 for the time frame until Dec 27, 1912. John, I hope I'm not offending you-that's not my intent-but I believe you are searching for theories to make your gun what you hope it to be rather than what it is. The Navy marked slides were all made prior to WWI. Your slide was made in 1918 and would have been marked 'Army.' (see p.18 of Clawson's Guide-note the slide markings and the contour of the recoil spring housing.) Also, all USMC pistols were marked 'MODEL OF 1911. The Eagle's head inspection mark wasn't used until May 1918 and in June 1918 the US Property mark moved from the left side of the frame to the right side, just above the serial number. (see Clawson, p.
90) I don't believe Clawson shows any pictures of guns without the US Property marks. The Ordnance inspector was not a Colt employee and would not have stamped his final acceptance without a serial number and US Property marking. Clawson's big book on service pistols is 429 pages long vs. The Guide which is a little over 100 pages.
The big book obviously has much more detail including an extensive chapter on Ordnance inspection and acceptance procedures. Step 8 of the process involved examining both sides of the pistol for proper markings. Charlie Pate's book on U.S. Handguns and Scott Meadows' book on U.S. Military Automatic Pistols are also good references and still fairly easy to obtain if you want to really explore the field. No offense taken, everything is just a supposition at this point, I have no idea as to the origin or how it came to be in this condition.
The man that gave it to me admitted to having the Model of US Army or Navy removed (although he said US. Property), but looking at his handiwork you would think he would use the same guy to do the slide rather than tear it all up. If he had the frame milled of all markings, why not use the same guy for the slide? The guns looks to have the original bluing on it. The more I look at it, the more perplexed I am.
For all I know it could have been a lunch box special that was sent to a soldier overseas who was not able to get one otherwise. Know of any good 1911 appraisers in the CA Area, other than the guy in Huntington Beach. Obviously I dont have the expertise to look this one over.
I hope Clawson reproduces the Big Book soon! I was tempted to buy one at $650, but then I figure he may be planning another run since he made the guide last year. The gun does not appear to be reblued, it looks like the beautiful commercial finish of the late 20s and 30s.
I measured the area under the slide rails and it mikes out to.770. My Colt commercial from 1929 mikes out at.762, so it doesnt appear to have been planed.
Colt 1911 Slide Serial Number Location Case Stx
Also I dont see anything on the frame that would indicate the serial number was removed; I believe it came from the factory like this either as a lunchbox special that was sent overseas by some Marine's father or it was a replacement gun that slipped past without having the replaced gun's serial number retuck on it. There is no depression, no spot rebluing, etc. I have contacted an expert in the hopes of having him evaluate and investigate this pistol. I dont have the expertise to do so. John, you have a very interesting and unique pistol and it has a fascinating history to go with it. The eagle over S8 stamp indicates your Colt was manufactured in 1918 (or possibly 1919).
The eagle was an ordnance inspection stamp that first appeared around May 1918 and continued to the end of M1911 production in 1919. The H and G markings seen near the disconnector hole were also typical of this time period, the H representing provisional inspection by Frank Hosmer, and the G representing Government contract order.
However, as a general rule, the VP stamp on the left trigger guard did not appear on military issue pistols until circa 1937. The VP stamp on your pistol makes it very, very unique.
Military pistols returned to the Colt factory for repair/rework were stamped with the VP in the exact location you describe after the job was completed. The K marking you mentioned has also been reported as a common repair/overhaul mark, usually located on the right trigger guard and various other places. What did Colt's do to the pistol? Impossible to say without a first hand examination.
It is possible that during the repair/overhaul process, the pistol was refinished by Colt's and this would partly explain the absence of some of the typical military markings. From what I can glean from the pics, it looks like an oven blue polished finish which would date the repair/overhaul process to sometime during the pre-WWII period. Typically the late 1918-1919 mfg.
Colt Serial Number Lookup
M1911's had the so-called 'Black Army' finish which appears rough, matte, and with prominent milling lines that give it a 'brushed' texture. In any case, your pistol (a VP-stamped pre-1937 military example) is an extremely rare variation. The fact that it has seen such extensive military service in two Wars makes it an even more interesting piece. Truly it is one Colt M1911 that should be cherished as it is a testament to the fortitude and longevity of the 1911 design.
Congragulations on your find. Much of this information came from Clawson's guidebook. This is a condensed version of the bigger $700 textbook. It can be had for under $35 and is money well-spent. See for details.